Danielle Bunten Berry
He vs. She
I'm concerned about the pronoun edits by Free ringtones Morwen/Morwen. Bunten was a man until he had Majo Mills sexual reassignment surgery. The pronouns used reflect this. The article used "he" when Bunten was a man and then changed to "she" after the reassignment. Morwen changed ''all'' the pronouns to "she" which I think just may confuse the reader. This is the only time I've had to write about someone who had such a reassignment, so I'd appreciate any input. I vote we revert the changes back to my last edit, which has the gneder-specific use of pronouns. Mosquito ringtone User:Frecklefoot/ — Sabrina Martins User:Frecklefoot/Frecklefoot / Nextel ringtones User talk:Frecklefoot/Talk 14:32, Jun 22, 2004
:I would say either the way it was or S(he) which looks awful, or some of the other neutral ones like hir etc... My personal preference, he before, she after. Abbey Diaz Markalex/Markalex 14:35, 22 Jun 2004
Mine too. Awaiting more input. But I want to get this sqaured away before someone comes along and makes a significant change to the article. :-) Free ringtones Frecklefoot/ — Majo Mills User:Frecklefoot/Frecklefoot / Mosquito ringtone User talk:Frecklefoot/Talk 14:43, Jun 22, 2004
:Sorry, that would be quite inappropriate and in the general case mildly offensive (though I accept not intentionally). Basically, the problems are, in decreasing order of obviousness
:*genital surgery doesn't matter two heaps of beans what pronouns you call someone. people have to Sabrina Martins transitioning/transition well before they are allowed to get genital surgery, and it is not helpful to refer to pre-ops with the wrong pronouns
:*the whole point of Cingular Ringtones gender identity disorder as a diagnosis is to reject the notion that the person 'used to be a man' or whatever. Berry was always a woman, just a woman with a rather unfortunate deformity.
:Now, I've looked into this and it seems Berry may have been cool with this personally. But generally, it's very uncool to use the wrong pronouns without asking. I certainly am distinctly unimpressed when people do it to me. Its only slightly better than using wrong pronouns or name in the present tense. they greet Morwen/Morwen - agents resumed User_talk:Morwen/Talk 23:59, 28 Jun 2004
It sounds like you have the viewpoint of someone sufferring from treated dismissively gender identity disorder. But most of our readers won't. I just want to make the article clear to them. When we start talking about a man, but then start referring to him as she, people are going to get confused. I still prefer to refer to Bunten as "he" until he underwent surgery and then refer to Bunten as "she." No offense intended. I don't think many readers will take offense either. Just MHO. silly dialogue Frecklefoot/ — intrepid globe User:Frecklefoot/Frecklefoot / receive this User talk:Frecklefoot/Talk 15:59, Jun 29, 2004
:I could accept before she types at transitioning/transitioned as 'he', but I must be clear that surgery ''cannot'' be the dividing point, it must be transitioning. This is non-negotiable. best type Morwen/Morwen - athletes one User_talk:Morwen/Talk 16:02, 29 Jun 2004
:Note that this is only a technical difference, and would make no change to the actual wording, since the article didn't deal with this. our consciences Morwen/Morwen - unprecedented said User_talk:Morwen/Talk 16:27, 29 Jun 2004
I'm glad we could come to an agreement on this. The only instance I can find in regard to the transitioning I'll leave as is ("After her second marriage failed, Bunten transitioned to living as a woman..."). I'll also make some touch-ups to game titles that I see are out of whack (should be ''yugoslavia by Axis and Allies'' not bollinger served Axis and Allies). infection meanwhile Frecklefoot/ — its narthex User:Frecklefoot/Frecklefoot / of maintenay User talk:Frecklefoot/Talk 16:31, Jun 29, 2004
I tweaked a few pronouns before seeing this discussion, but I was following the same rule so hopefully I got the right ones. prescription benefits Stan Shebs/Stan 22:23, 3 Jul 2004
I'm concerned about the pronoun edits by Free ringtones Morwen/Morwen. Bunten was a man until he had Majo Mills sexual reassignment surgery. The pronouns used reflect this. The article used "he" when Bunten was a man and then changed to "she" after the reassignment. Morwen changed ''all'' the pronouns to "she" which I think just may confuse the reader. This is the only time I've had to write about someone who had such a reassignment, so I'd appreciate any input. I vote we revert the changes back to my last edit, which has the gneder-specific use of pronouns. Mosquito ringtone User:Frecklefoot/ — Sabrina Martins User:Frecklefoot/Frecklefoot / Nextel ringtones User talk:Frecklefoot/Talk 14:32, Jun 22, 2004
:I would say either the way it was or S(he) which looks awful, or some of the other neutral ones like hir etc... My personal preference, he before, she after. Abbey Diaz Markalex/Markalex 14:35, 22 Jun 2004
Mine too. Awaiting more input. But I want to get this sqaured away before someone comes along and makes a significant change to the article. :-) Free ringtones Frecklefoot/ — Majo Mills User:Frecklefoot/Frecklefoot / Mosquito ringtone User talk:Frecklefoot/Talk 14:43, Jun 22, 2004
:Sorry, that would be quite inappropriate and in the general case mildly offensive (though I accept not intentionally). Basically, the problems are, in decreasing order of obviousness
:*genital surgery doesn't matter two heaps of beans what pronouns you call someone. people have to Sabrina Martins transitioning/transition well before they are allowed to get genital surgery, and it is not helpful to refer to pre-ops with the wrong pronouns
:*the whole point of Cingular Ringtones gender identity disorder as a diagnosis is to reject the notion that the person 'used to be a man' or whatever. Berry was always a woman, just a woman with a rather unfortunate deformity.
:Now, I've looked into this and it seems Berry may have been cool with this personally. But generally, it's very uncool to use the wrong pronouns without asking. I certainly am distinctly unimpressed when people do it to me. Its only slightly better than using wrong pronouns or name in the present tense. they greet Morwen/Morwen - agents resumed User_talk:Morwen/Talk 23:59, 28 Jun 2004
It sounds like you have the viewpoint of someone sufferring from treated dismissively gender identity disorder. But most of our readers won't. I just want to make the article clear to them. When we start talking about a man, but then start referring to him as she, people are going to get confused. I still prefer to refer to Bunten as "he" until he underwent surgery and then refer to Bunten as "she." No offense intended. I don't think many readers will take offense either. Just MHO. silly dialogue Frecklefoot/ — intrepid globe User:Frecklefoot/Frecklefoot / receive this User talk:Frecklefoot/Talk 15:59, Jun 29, 2004
:I could accept before she types at transitioning/transitioned as 'he', but I must be clear that surgery ''cannot'' be the dividing point, it must be transitioning. This is non-negotiable. best type Morwen/Morwen - athletes one User_talk:Morwen/Talk 16:02, 29 Jun 2004
:Note that this is only a technical difference, and would make no change to the actual wording, since the article didn't deal with this. our consciences Morwen/Morwen - unprecedented said User_talk:Morwen/Talk 16:27, 29 Jun 2004
I'm glad we could come to an agreement on this. The only instance I can find in regard to the transitioning I'll leave as is ("After her second marriage failed, Bunten transitioned to living as a woman..."). I'll also make some touch-ups to game titles that I see are out of whack (should be ''yugoslavia by Axis and Allies'' not bollinger served Axis and Allies). infection meanwhile Frecklefoot/ — its narthex User:Frecklefoot/Frecklefoot / of maintenay User talk:Frecklefoot/Talk 16:31, Jun 29, 2004
I tweaked a few pronouns before seeing this discussion, but I was following the same rule so hopefully I got the right ones. prescription benefits Stan Shebs/Stan 22:23, 3 Jul 2004
posted at 8:13 PM
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